Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Oil

  1. #1
    Senior Member spamer80's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Saint-Petersburg, Russia
    Posts
    284

    Default Oil

    I`ve been recently thinking about changing oil, and asked myself - why we`re not allowed to use car oil instead of motorcycle special? Slippering clutch? Ok, we actually don`t have clutch. What else? High rev engine? Guess we don`t have one too. The max RPM`s are 9000 and my cruising is about 3000/5000 city/highway.
    Could it be that this phrase in user manual (about API SG+ and JASO MA) just printed universally like in all other manuals for all other Honda motorcycles?

    I`m actually thinking about giving a try to Shell Helix HX7 10W40. It`s pretty cheap, easy to find and has good quality at least on paper http://tdc.ge/wp-content/uploads/201...HX7_10W-40.pdf
    Last edited by spamer80; 03-30-2017 at 07:48 AM.

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    37

    Default

    This is going to turn into a flame war...I can just feel it!!!
    Page 11.7 in the service manual lists 5 "symptoms" of unusual "events"
    EVERY one, the first cause is likely to be "faulty" engine oil, ie incorrect engine oil.
    Attached is an extract from a Honda document re engine oil
    GN4 is dino oil
    HP4 is semi synth (more for sports bikes running much higher engine speeds)
    OK...maybe you haven't had any problems for x years but for a couple of dollars I wouldn't want to risk damaging vital parts cos I put the wrong oil in it.
    I just found out that a replacement HFT is nearly $8,000 Gulp!!
    There IS a clutch of sorts in the HFT to enable neutral to drive activation.
    Also, regular engine oil is designed to work with SLIDING parts, not cogs and gears. That's why cars have separate engine and transmission oils.
    Just my opinion and my dollars worth. For mine, a couple of dollars saving is not worth the risk of getting stuck hundreds of kilometers from home.
    Use what you are prepared to pay for.
    Good luck.
    Cheers
    Pete
    Some info taken from this site
    (https://motorcycle.honda.ca/parts-se...-oil-chemicals)
    Attached Files Attached Files

  3. #3
    Senior Member Gizmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Jacksonville, Florida USA
    Posts
    411

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Overthehill View Post
    This is going to turn into a flame war...I can just feel it!!!
    Page 11.7 in the service manual lists 5 "symptoms" of unusual "events"
    EVERY one, the first cause is likely to be "faulty" engine oil, ie incorrect engine oil.
    Attached is an extract from a Honda document re engine oil
    GN4 is dino oil
    HP4 is semi synth (more for sports bikes running much higher engine speeds)
    OK...maybe you haven't had any problems for x years but for a couple of dollars I wouldn't want to risk damaging vital parts cos I put the wrong oil in it.
    I just found out that a replacement HFT is nearly $8,000 Gulp!!
    There IS a clutch of sorts in the HFT to enable neutral to drive activation.
    Also, regular engine oil is designed to work with SLIDING parts, not cogs and gears. That's why cars have separate engine and transmission oils.
    Just my opinion and my dollars worth. For mine, a couple of dollars saving is not worth the risk of getting stuck hundreds of kilometers from home.
    Use what you are prepared to pay for.
    Good luck.
    Cheers
    Pete
    Some info taken from this site
    (https://motorcycle.honda.ca/parts-se...-oil-chemicals)

    I 'side' with Overthehill when using ONLY specified motorcycle oil in ALL my bikes! I remember a time when I 'used' a 'generic' oil in my Honda car and really screwed things up. Being 'cheap' just does NOT cut it with me especially in a 'unique' machine as the DN-01. (She's SPECIAL!) BUT IF you do decide to go thru with your 'idea' to save a few bucks, please keep us posted to your 'success!'
    2009 Honda DN-01
    2015 Yamaha R3

  4. #4
    Senior Member spamer80's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Saint-Petersburg, Russia
    Posts
    284

    Default

    It's not actually to save a few bucks. It's about what's easier to find everywhere.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Gizmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Jacksonville, Florida USA
    Posts
    411

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spamer80 View Post
    It's not actually to save a few bucks. It's about what's easier to find everywhere.

    I can relate and understand.
    2009 Honda DN-01
    2015 Yamaha R3

  6. #6
    Senior Member zebra03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Pa
    Posts
    313

    Default

    I have used Wolf's Head Motor Oil 10w40 since new . Change every 4000 miles . Now have 20,000 mile . SG oil was obsolete in 1993 . As long as the oil is NON energy conserving oil . you are good to go .
    2009 Honda DN-01
    2007 Suzuki DR650SE
    2003 Honda Reflex
    2013 Suzuki Burgman 650

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario
    Posts
    106

    Default

    I've been using 100% 'Amsoil' synthetic oil ever since first oil change. My mileage isn't exceptionally high. As a result, I've only been changing the oil once a year - during winter lay-up. I asked my Honda dealer what to use, he looked it up in a book/manual, and arrived at a suitable substitute.

    Mark Zimmerman dispels some of the myths about motorcycles in this recent article. Synthetic Oil is discussed as the 2nd myth.
    http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/5-motorcycle-myths
    Last edited by DNSarnia; 05-06-2017 at 09:26 AM. Reason: added a link

  8. #8
    Senior Member spamer80's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Saint-Petersburg, Russia
    Posts
    284

    Default

    Since this is my topic, I must to reply. I`ve found recently that the oil I`ve used the past year (Eni i-Ride 10W40) could be found pretty easy from official importer for $6 per liter. With shipping (from other city) it is about $7 per liter which is pretty good. And far better than Motul for $11 per liter (4L canister) Anyway, I`ve previously used Motul 7100 10W40 and after year I can`t say that Eni is worse. It well suits my slow and smooth riding style. And if I buy 20l it will be $4 per liter which I found pretty good. It`s even cheapier than car oil I can found in wallmart. So I think I will stay with this for a while.

  9. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Surrey, UK
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Overthehill View Post
    This is going to turn into a flame war...I can just feel it!!!
    OK, here goes -

    Page 11.7 in the service manual lists 5 "symptoms" of unusual "events"
    EVERY one, the first cause is likely to be "faulty" engine oil, ie incorrect engine oil.
    I wouldn't agree that 'faulty' necessarily means incorrect. How incorrect does it have to be to be classified as faulty?

    ...There IS a clutch of sorts in the HFT to enable neutral to drive activation.
    Well I've not stripped a DN-01 engine (unlike most other Honda engines of 30 years ago when I conducted the technical training on them at Honda UK), but unless I'm very much mistaken, there is NO clutch of any sort whatsoever in a DN-01. The fact it can emulate Neutral does not a clutch make. A clutch is a specific device with 2 sets of plates clamped together and the drive to the rear wheel(s) is via the friction between those 2 sets of plates. It is this exact point that is relevant to the use of synthetic oils in motorcycles which are unusual (compared to cars) in mostly using wet clutches. The friction modifiers used in many modern oils (commonly but not uniquely synthetic) might allow an otherwise healthy clutch to slip (apart from Ducatis with rattly dry clutches of course). This is the reason why some oils are not suitable for motorcycle use and a motorcycle specific oil will simply be formulated with fewer such modifiers to allow wet clutches to work as intended.

    The DN-01 has no such clutch and hence the friction modifier content is irrelevant.

    Also, regular engine oil is designed to work with SLIDING parts, not cogs and gears. That's why cars have separate engine and transmission oils.
    But motorcycles usually run the same oil in engine and gearbox. It can be argued that separate oils specifically targeted at those different uses would be a better solution, however the statistics back up Honda's claim that it makes sod all difference as engines with common oil in main engine and gearbox experience NO deleterious effects of this sharing. Honda cars with typical separate engine and gearbox housings used to use the same 10W40 in both. Same oil, just not actually shared simply due to the physical design of the engine and gearbox, either side of a dry clutch.

    The important points about which oil to use are the specs that Honda quote. This is the oil standard (API, JASO etc) and the viscosity (how thick it is). Both are crucial. Honda quote an oil standard that must be met - or exceeded. That last is important since oil technology progresses and standards get superseded. Honda are just saying, as long as it's at least this good, then it's ok. You can use oil of a lower standard if you want, it's up to you. Really. But if you have an oil related problem, Honda won't help. Use the correct oil as specified and Honda's warranty holds. You could argue that when the bike's out of warranty it doesn't matter, but if Honda decided the bike needs that standard of oil to work as intended, that requirement will not diminish over time and let's be honest, Honda know quite a lot about engine design and lubrication requirements and ain't gonna recommend junk and they don't make oil (i.e. they're not an oil company and are not trying to coerce users into using their oil) so what they recommend is worth following.

    Then there's the viscosity. In the Training Schools we had a hard time convincing dealers to not use and recommend 20W50 (a common oil available at the time). This thicker oil is NOT to be used at the average ambient temperature of the UK. In the Arizona desert, maybe. Cleethorpes - probably not. Testing (by Castrol I seem to remember) showed that at low temperatures, the thicker oil could take 30 seconds to reach the cam, after engine start. That's a long time for the cam to be running on just what's left from the last run. In the UK, 10W40 was the correct viscosity.

    Nowadays, Honda have mostly lowered that to 10W30, probably sometimes with the same engine for which they previously recommended 10W40. The fact is now that oils have improved and even at high temperatures, a 10W30 oil can still maintain the required film over the important components and since it is actually thinner, there's less drag so more power and better MPG, both of which have become increasingly important.

    So the use of 10W40 as opposed to 10W30 will not damage the engine. After all, at lower temperatures, they'll both have the same viscosity. It's just that when the engine's up to normal operating temperature the latter will end up a bit thinner. So back to the DN-01s HFT troubleshooting chart, there's no way those problems apparently caused by 'faulty oil' have anything to do with the use of 10W40 instead of 10W30.

    So as long as an oil meets or exceeds the (API, JASO etc) standard specified by Honda and is of suitable viscosity, you're golden. Doesn't matter whose oil it is and in the case of the DN-01, car, motorcycle, synthetic or otherwise shouldn't affect it either. Would I use 10W40? Yes. I use that (Castrol motorcycle synthetic, I forget the name) in all my bikes and it is indeed the viscosity recommended by Honda for most of them. However I have no qualms using it in the more modern ones for which 10W30 is recommended. Once my DN-01 is complete it will also run on Castrol 10W40 synthetic and I am 100% confident it will NOT cause any problems.

  10. #10
    Senior Member spamer80's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Saint-Petersburg, Russia
    Posts
    284

    Default

    There IS a clutch of sorts in the HFT to enable neutral to drive activation.
    Solenoid, not clutch. Which makes the oil flow to different holes.
    there is NO clutch of any sort whatsoever in a DN-01
    There IS clutch. The almost normal clutch, with plates etc.
    https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/ho...a-dn-01/clutch
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ggawqoz2.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	61.5 KB 
ID:	372
    Page 2.1 and later in Service Manual.
    The only difference that the default mode of normal clutch is "engaged" and you apply force to clutch lever to disengage it. On DN-01 it`s more like centrifugal clutch which is "disengaged" by default. And there is oil pressure from transmission pump side which makes it to engage.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •